Peter Ryan, AFL Record Writer: Geelong had nine unanswered goals kicked against them in the first half against the Eagles but then fought back well in the second half. What does the result say about the Cats' premiership chances?
Michael Lovett, AFL Record Writer: The Cats need to get some structure back in attack. Time to get (Cameron) Mooney back in the seniors although I note the VFL had a bye so it will be interesting to see whether they take him up to the Gabba this week. (Joel) Selwood returns and will add a harder edge to the midfield. However, it is a worry the Cats are giving up unanswered goals (they did it against the Bombers the previous week). (Darren) Milburn has been a massive out over the past few weeks.
Nick Bowen, AFL Record Writer: I don't think in isolation the result says that much. The Eagles are a good side this year and they were playing at their 'Subi' house of pain. But when you consider the Cats conceded six unanswered goals to the Bombers the week before they may have a deeper problem. Especially when they've let their opponents go on five-goal streaks in four of their past five games. The biggest dampener on their chances though is the form of Collingwood. The Magpies were merciless against North yesterday and are far and away the best side in the comp.
Ben Collins, AFL Record Writer: A lot of footy these days is played in spurts and fluctuations in momentum. Even Collingwood has conceded five and six consecutive goals to opponents on occasions this season, the major difference being the Pies have usually let the opposition into it in the third quarter when they’re already 50-60 points up. It would be a bit of a concern for the Cats. They were smashed in every facet of the game in the first half and could easily have been 50-60 (points) down by then considering the Eagles had peppered away early for little reward.
But the fact the Cats fought back while under siege from a hungry young team and in front of a Perth crowd baying for blood was testament to the Cats’ renowned fighting qualities. For all that went wrong for them on the night, the Cats could easily have won the game. They believe they are never beaten, that they are always in the game, and other sides are acutely aware of this quality too. The impact of this psychology could become significant come finals.
Although we’re focusing on Geelong here, we shouldn’t forget perhaps the real story: the emergence of the Eagles. John Worsfold’s effort to lift the Eagles from bottom to seemingly premiership contenders, when he appeared a dead man walking, has been one of the most phenomenal coaching efforts in recent memory, perhaps ever.
Ryan: What do you put the Eagles' resurgence down to then Ben?
Collins: Very simply, as I am a very simple observer, their best and most experienced players are back to their best - the likes of (Dean) Cox, (Daniel) Kerr, (Andrew) Embley, (Quinten) Lynch (although he didn't play against the Cats), etc - and their kids have kicked on. When most players have a career-best season, chances are you'll go all right. And they've adapted their game plan very well to the current style of press football.
Rueing Joel Selwood's Absence
Ryan: Wonder if (Joel) Selwood's appeal was mentioned during the second quarter on Friday night?
Callum Twomey, AFL Record Writer: I bet it crossed every Geelong supporter's mind when the television coverage crossed to Selwood sitting in the coaches box looking a little bit helpless. They definitely could have used him in that first half.
Bowen: How handy would Joel have been? The Cats just couldn't get their hands on the footy for the best part of a quarter, and no one at the Cattery is better at winning the pill than No. 14. Tribunal challenges almost always end in tears, so you've got to wonder what the Cats were thinking. From memory, they challenged to stand up for Selwood's reputation. Would have been better to swallow his pride and cop the three weeks.
Collins: One player, no matter how good he is, isn't going to stop a blitzkrieg. Selwood might have made some difference but not significant enough to prevent the Cats being well down at half-time. But he might have made the difference in the end in a tight game.
Ryan: Selwood's standing has risen in his absence as often happens. He is a champ and his centre clearance work is crucial. I think he would have evened up the centre clearances numbers in the first half as he just makes that starting four so much stronger. As we saw Friday night if the opposition managed to get it forward it was hard for defenders to run the ball out.
By the way I reckon standing up for Selwood's reputation was fair enough. Any club is, in its essence, an idea. Geelong stands up for its players and values their reputation and how they want to be seen. I think that is worth more in the long run than the one game.
Twomey: Did that actually happen though, Pete? Not sure challenging a ban on the grounds of one's reputation made anyone look that much better to be honest. Everyone knows Selwood is a fair player, three-week suspension or four.
Ryan: He felt it was important so that was what mattered. He seemed to want to make the point he had never struck someone and he started playing as an 8-year-old. That is the way he sees the game and the way he plays it. That is important regardless of what other people thought. By the way the presence of Selwoods everywhere you looked in West Coast jumpers just rubbed his absence in.
The Midfield Group and Arlo Guthrie
Ryan: While on midfield players, midfield groups need to run much deeper these days with the good sides having seven or eight quality mids. Who would you rate as the best midfield group in the competition right now?
Collins: The best midfield has to be Collingwood's for its sheer quality, depth and variety.
Lovett: Good question. Clearly Collingwood because it is the best at using rotations - Swan, Pendlebury and Thomas provide the class and Ball gives them the grunt. I liked the way the Dogs went about their task yesterday against the Blues. Cooney is so crucial and just wonderful to watch when he's up and running. Boyd did a great job on Judd, even though the Carlton skipper had plenty of it himself. The Cats would be right up there if No. 29 was still there but Selwood, Bartel, Chapman, Kelly and Ling, who was inspirational against West Coast, still rate among the best midfields in the business.
Ryan: 29 is still there Michael. His name is Cameron Guthrie and he looks a player. Who wore number 29 before G.Ablett by the way?
Lovett: Ah yes, young 'Arlo' Guthrie. From the Calder Cannons and played a couple of games earlier this year. Daniel Lowther (34 games, 1998-2001) wore No. 29 before G. Ablett.
Bowen: Collingwood's clearly. While Judd and Murphy might match Swan and Pendlebury, the Maggies have more depth than the Blues and every other side. Thomas is an out-and-out star, Ball an elite inside player and Wellingham, Sidebottom and Beams are emerging stars.
Ryan: That midfield depth is so critical. No longer is it Scott, Tuck, Matthews as defined the Hawthorn midfield in ’70s. It's Thomas, Pendlebury, Swan, Ball, Wellingham, Sidebottom, Beams when fit and Jolly tops it off. I think North Melbourne will have a great midfield in a couple of years too. As Brad Scott said after yesterday's game each of his players are probably a couple of percent off each of the Collingwood players. Agree with that assessment as hard as it is to recognise after yesterday's performance.
Play Koschitzke, or not?
Ryan: Nic Naitanui and Dean Cox are shaping as the best ruck combination in the competition and the Eagles take on the Saints. Ben McEvoy is developing well for St Kilda. Do the Saints slot Justin Koschitzke straight back in?
Twomey: I interviewed Leigh Montagna last week for a story in this week’s AFL Record, and he said that McEvoy has probably been the biggest improver in St Kilda’s second-half of the season, which has coincided with their resurgence. I think they will bring in Kosi right away, but am not as sure if they should. The balance seems to be about right now, particularly after five wins from the past seven games and the only losses coming to Geelong and Collingwood.
Ryan: Bring Koschitzke in. He remains critical to the Saints being a contender. His performance in the first Grand Final was brilliant and he has shown signs at various times. I remember him smashing the Eagles in a milestone game for (Robert) Harvey over in the west a couple of years ago, taking those big pack marks. With McEvoy improving, Riewoldt in form and Kosi playing deep forward all of a sudden the Saints look much more dangerous.
Bowen: If I was Ross Lyon, I'd stick with McEvoy as the sole ruckman. Kosi's absence has forced Lyon to bring in Tom Lynch up forward and the Saints have got to get some games into him to see what he can offer. It's his third year and he's hardly played at all too date. I think the Saints look a bit too tall and slow with Kosi up forward and, with McEvoy firing, that's where he'd have to spend most of his time.
The Bulldogs Frown is Upside Down
Ryan: The Bulldogs season has been turned around by a combination of a coaching rethink, return of quality players and the injection of young players who give a contest. Is this the start of a tilt that many thought would come this year but might be more realistic in 2012?
Twomey: Return of quality players can't be underestimated for the Dogs. Barry Hall, Adam Cooney and Shaun Higgins were all great yesterday against the Blues and have had injury-interrupted seasons. They still rely heavily on Hall as a forward option though, I think, and who knows if he'll even be playing in 2012.
Collins: Who is going to kick the Dogs' goals if Barry Hall retires? And how will they fare without Brian Lake permanently if he decides to leave? Can't see Eade doing a Worsfold because the Dogs' kids don't appear to be as talented as the Eagles.
Ryan: I see many similarities with the Bulldogs to Collingwood in 2009. Decimated early by injuries, changed game style slightly, young players being exposed to bigger and bigger games and belief in each other and the group rising all the time. No (Tom) Liberatore or (Mitch) Wallis yesterday but (Andrew) Hooper and (Luke) Dahlhaus playing well is a great sign. Griffen and Cooney about to peak. The Pies hit form midway through 2010 and have been unstoppable since. Agree, Hall is the big question. Could they or would they recruit another key forward to replace Hall and if so, who?
Bowen: I think the Bulldogs will be more realistic contenders around 2014. I agree their biggest problem is undoubtedly who replaces Barry Hall up forward. As promising as Jarrad Grant is, he is not a go-to forward in the mould of Big Bazza. They're also going to have to look at replacing Ben Hudson in the ruck sooner rather than later and the likes of (Jordan) Roughead and (Ayce) Cordy are still a way off.
Lovett: Their best players are out on the park, bar Lake. Hall looked the sharpest he's been all season yesterday and presented well. This might sound silly but he's turned the frown upside down - he was the happiest he's appeared all year. Ditto Cooney. What about that goal in the third quarter when he was on the end of a chain of passes and he just put the after-burners on? Loved their defensive effort and Williams had the best game of his injury-riddled career. The Dogs will be dangerous and Dahlhaus and Hooper added a bit of X-factor scrapping around the packs up forward.
Ryan: Team goal of the year that Cooney goal.
Twomey: Nick's clearly not a big wrap on the Dogs. Taylor Walker from the Crows would be perfect for the Dogs but if you believe the good oil he's on his way to GWS.
Ryan: Fair point about Hudson who is 32 although he looked to have a couple of years in him in the second half yesterday. Once he becomes a greybeard then his time might be up. He's got a lot of heart and is still a very good player. There are plenty of second ruckmen looking for a home so they might find one at the Whitten Oval. Not sure about Jordan Roughead's progress but he has often impressed.
Bowen: Easy, Cal. I have no problem with the Dogs. I just think they've reached the stage where their list is in transition. I don't think they're in for a major rebuild but they're going to need time. And when I say 2014 I think they could be ready to give the flag a shake at that stage.
Ryan: While we're on long-term visions, is Julia Gillard fair dinkum? Her address to the nation was broadcast while the Dogs were playing.
The Push Up Mark
Ryan: Hawthorn's Paul Puopolo took a mark on Saturday using his hands to elevate himself and the umpire had a clear view yet still paid the mark. If it's a speccy, does the rule go out the door?
Bowen: It appears to but it shouldn't. I don't know whether the umpires get caught up in the excitement of the moment or whether they don't want to play killjoy but a rule's a rule. If you push someone in the back with your hands, you're taking him out of the contest. And speccy or no speccy that's a free kick every time. The fact you can cannon into someone's back with your knees to take a hanger is all the leniency our high flyers need.
Ryan: Seems to go out the window. Heath Shaw did the same thing against the Hawks the week before and was not penalised even when he spilt the mark. Definitely should be a free otherwise footy becomes like lunchtime in the school yard when we used to play 'no rules kick to kick' Now they were tough packs. I was the tallest crumber you've ever seen.
Collins: I've heard people say that to penalise Puopolo would have been robbing the game of a great spectacle, but the rules are the rules. You don't introduce a hands-in-the-back rule and then apply it only on select occasions. It has to be applied every time in all circumstances, regardless of whether it would deny the offending player the Mark of the Year. If you apply the rules, no one can logically complain. (Of course, there are many illogical individuals out there.) Make it black and white. No grey areas. Cut and dried. Easy-peasy.
Ryan: Players aren't ladders. If you need a hand to get up there, it is not a mark. Although I love the fact he went for it.
Hurley Whirley
Ryan: Essendon's Michael Hurley seems the perfect modern player. Can you just play him at either end depending on the opposition?
Twomey: I think we’ll have to wait until Dustin Fletcher retires to really answer this one. Until then, if Essendon has Fletcher, Pears and Hooker in defence, Hurley will spend a lot of time up forward because the other three can only play as defenders. Once Fletch finishes up, most likely at the end of next year, Hurley will settle into a defensive role. The bottom line is that he’s an excellent, versatile, competitive, aggressive player of which the Bombers can build a team around. For the next couple of years at least, we’ll be still having this debate.
Ryan: Hurley is the type of universal play anywhere player that is so crucial for the modern game. I think Essendon should just play him where he is needed. He is good enough to manage it. Very exciting and the type to build a premiership team around. Fletcher looks likely to go on forever.
Collins: Hurley is almost a modern version of the great Terry Daniher, who could be relied upon to play anywhere, equally as competently. I'd like to eventually see him as a semi-permanent key forward and occasional stopper on an opposition gun forward.
Lovett: Hurley was an All-Australian defender in the under-18s and played most of his football in defence in the TAC Cup. He probably gets a bit confused, one week he's in attack the next he's in defence but having seen a fair bit of him in junior footy, he's just an aggressive unit who loves to charge at the footy. That means he is better suited in defence but it's a nice luxury to be able to send him forward. I reckon he has shot up a couple of centimetres as well.
Can the Tigers' rebound?
Ryan: Richmond's mistakes rebounding the ball from defence is costing them heavily. Damien Hardwick knows this but the question is how do you approach that coaching a young side? Do you tighten the screws and risk players going into the shells or do you teach and teach and keep encouraging the players to learn through mistakes?
Twomey: Unfortunately for Hardwick, it was his captain Chris Newman who started the rot with an awful blunder out of defence. Bachar Houli backed it up with another howler. These guys aren't young or inexperienced players. But he certainly should be continuing to teach and teach and teach. It's the only way. For two and a half quarters the Tigers were very good.
Lovett: More short-term pain I'm afraid for the Tigers. I know their supporters have been extremely patient but they will have to hang tight for another 18 months. Build a midfield around Martin and Cotchin, expect that Riewoldt will be a bit hit or miss and keep working the draft to get kids. The main thing is to allow Damien Hardwick the time to work a structure that is sustainable and everyone knows they are on the same page.
Bowen: Hardwick will be taking a long-term view. As hard as some of Richmond's losses are at the moment, they can ultimately be invaluable learning exercises for his group. And I'm sure he's encouraging his players to take the game on and to relish the opportunity of matching it with some of the best players in the comp. If he goes into lock-down mode, that sort of negativity can cripple a club and its players. Much better to have a crack, dust yourself off when you cop a pasting and go again. Every side that's rebuilt over the years has had to go through extended pain.
Ryan: It must be a tough part of coaching. Having to drill down on something but not over-emphasise it so it becomes front and centre of the mind. Hardwick does not want Richmond players scared to get free possession in the backline. It needs to be an issue the whole team takes on board. Forwards and mids need to work harder to create option. If I was coaching I'd be emphasising that a mistake is never an individual mistake. Something team related has always caused it. And individuals either with or without the ball need to work harder to make better decisions. Then celebrate when it is done well.
Rebuild Pain
Ryan: Nick, who apart from the Eagles has emerged after seasons of pain without having a good base of premiership players on its list?
Bowen: Geelong and St Kilda both rebuilt in the early 2000s without having any premiership players. And West Coast was investing in kids around the same time and I'm pretty sure the only player in their 2006 premiership team who'd played in 1994 was Drew Banfield. All went though some bleak seasons and copped some big pastings before they came good. But when they did, they had built lists capable of sustained success. More recently, the Hawks rebuilt without a core of premiership veterans, although they got Stuart Dew in to top things off. Of the current sides emerging, Carlton has Judd and no one else with premiership experience. But I think they'll be around the top of the ladder for years to come.
Twomey: Fremantle came from 14th in 2009 to finish sixth last year, and were genuine challengers for the top four until some injury blows ultimately cruelled its chances. The Eagles are a better chance to win it this year than the Dockers were last year, though.
Lovett: North should consign yesterday's tape to the same place the Tigers put theirs the week before against Carlton - in the bin. Nothing to be gained from reviewing that only to see how awesome the Pies are.
Bowen: I take more solace though from the Eagles. Wooden spooners last year, top-four contenders this year. With young lists, things can turn around very quickly. And I'm confident Brad Scott has the Roo Boys on the right track.
Ryan: Agree Nick, just makes those rebuilds so tough. Having those who have had premiership success around is a bonus. Dew was enormous for Hawthorn on and off the field late in 2008. One thing I'm learning is that coaches are pretty good at knowing how they are travelling.
Lovett: Cats have never been higher than Joel Selwood, No. 7 in 2006 and Joel Corey, No. 8 in 1999 since the great Stephen Hooper (No,. 1 in 1990). I saw big Hoops' first game at the Cattery and it was memorable - he nearly killed Gary Ablett snr in a marking contest! The Cats have used the draft better than most in the past decade.
Top Eight
Ryan: The top four has suddenly opened up after the Eagles win and Carlton's loss. What is the likely top four? Who will slot into the remaining four places in the eight?
Twomey: You would think on current form West Coast would definitely win at least five, and probably six, of its remaining games. Carlton will probably win four more, with maybe a chance to sneak one over Collingwood or Hawthorn. With that in mind, I’d say the Eagles will sneak into fourth spot and play Collingwood in the first week of the finals.
Bowen: Collingwood, Geelong, West Coast, Carlton. I think the Hawks' injuries will eventually catch up with them. But I don't see any side outside this group having the talent - or in Freo's case a healthy enough list - to really challenge.
Collins: Much as I hate to agree with Nick, I too think the Eagles would have to be a top-four chance. If they do, it would likely be at the expense of Hawthorn. As for who will fill the remaining three spots, I find it too difficult to predict because they’re all so inconsistent. Take Essendon for example - they can beat the undefeated top side one week and then be trailing Richmond for three quarters.
Ryan: Coll v Eagles, Geel v Hawks and in the bottom four, Carlton v St K, Syd v Fremantle. Essendon and the Bulldogs are genuine contenders and the Dockers will have earned it if they make it given their injuries and no gimmies in the last eight games. I think the Saints have three certainties and four maybes while the Bulldogs have two and five. If saints win this week, I become even more confident.
Lovett: I'm with Nick as well. Injuries have dealt Hawthorn a cruel blow but don't discount the Cyril factor when he's back. Sewell is a big in as well. For me, it's how far the Pies...Geelong will finish runners up and Carlton and the Eagles will be the beaten preliminary finalists. Eagles will get a home final in week two, which is a huge advantage.
