Inside the cosy confines of West Melbourne café/restaurant Don Camillo – a regular haunt of AFL footballers and a one-time meeting place for the notorious 'Carlton Crew' – three familiar faces are engaged in warm conversation.
AFL.com.au has arranged to meet Ben Johnson, the Collingwood premiership player who retired this year after 235 games. Johnson enjoys weekly lunches at Don Camillo's.
Seated opposite him on a back table is his close mate Chris Tarrant, a fellow henchman in the Collingwood 'Rat Pack', who retired at the end of 2012.
They are joined by the establishment's owner, Sam Greco, the shaven-headed former world champion kickboxer and martial artist whose acting credits include bit-part roles in two Underbelly instalments.
Johnson is dwarfed by his two muscle-bound mates, but isn't found wanting in any other department.
After he makes the introductions, Johnson reveals: "'Taz' is gonna do this (interview) with me."
This is an unexpected bonus, given it was often a challenge to get either to speak on the record during their playing careers. However, their reluctance was understandable as there was perhaps more interest in their antics off the field than on it.
Alas, this impossible interview proves just that.
Tarrant announces he has to be somewhere else. He insists he is not being evasive; he needs to catch a 3pm flight to Perth (where he spent four years as a Docker in between stints as a Pie).
When Johnson jokes that he will attribute some quotes to Tarrant regardless, Tarrant issues a mock threat to sue.
No matter; Johnson's quotes alone prove insightful enough.
In his typical straight-shooting style, he sets the record straight about an alleged fallout between Pies coach Nathan Buckley and the Rat Pack this season, when the rebel group comprised Johnson, Dane Swan, Alan Didak and Heath Shaw. Only Swan remains at the club.
Ben Johnson and Dane Swan walk from the MCG after a loss in the 2012 preliminary final. Picture: AFL Media
"It was built up like it was 'Bucks' versus the Rat Pack and it was unfair on everyone, including Bucks," Johnson said.
"It was rubbish and I don't know where it came from. We'd often have a laugh about it with Bucks inside the club.
"Me and 'Dids' were coming to the end of our careers anyway. Heath was traded (to Greater Western Sydney), which was a bit of a shock, but that's the game.
"Bucks has always got along really well with us. Me and Dids probably played a hundred games with him as our captain, and we had a good relationship with him.
"Bucks was certainly grumpier on the field than as a coach. He's a pretty tame coach, he keeps his head, and he's very approachable. Bucks' door is always open to every player.
"If there was ever an issue, we'd talk about it like grown men. Exactly the same as I did with Mick (Malthouse). I've had arguments with both – more with Mick – but we'd work it out."
Johnson and Leon Davis were the only Pies to play in Malthouse's first and last games at the club. The respect between coach and former player is enormous. Upon Johnson's retirement in July, now Carlton coach Malthouse lauded him as one of his "dearest" players.
For Johnson, the major difference between his two coaches was that Malthouse was a father figure who had done it all, while Buckley was his skipper and mate beforehand.
"The relationship is completely different, so of course things will change," Johnson said.
And change was required, he added.
"Our culture was fine under Mick, but the game has changed heaps in two years and Bucks is just adapting to that," he said. "He's clear on the direction he wants to take, and I think it's the right direction. He's making it more professional because that's the way the game has gone. If you don’t do that, you'll fall behind."
"It was built up like it was 'Bucks' versus the Rat Pack and it was unfair on everyone, including Bucks," Johnson said.
"It was rubbish and I don't know where it came from. We'd often have a laugh about it with Bucks inside the club.
"Me and 'Dids' were coming to the end of our careers anyway. Heath was traded (to Greater Western Sydney), which was a bit of a shock, but that's the game.
"Bucks has always got along really well with us. Me and Dids probably played a hundred games with him as our captain, and we had a good relationship with him.
"Bucks was certainly grumpier on the field than as a coach. He's a pretty tame coach, he keeps his head, and he's very approachable. Bucks' door is always open to every player.
"If there was ever an issue, we'd talk about it like grown men. Exactly the same as I did with Mick (Malthouse). I've had arguments with both – more with Mick – but we'd work it out."
Johnson and Leon Davis were the only Pies to play in Malthouse's first and last games at the club. The respect between coach and former player is enormous. Upon Johnson's retirement in July, now Carlton coach Malthouse lauded him as one of his "dearest" players.
For Johnson, the major difference between his two coaches was that Malthouse was a father figure who had done it all, while Buckley was his skipper and mate beforehand.
"The relationship is completely different, so of course things will change," Johnson said.
And change was required, he added.
"Our culture was fine under Mick, but the game has changed heaps in two years and Bucks is just adapting to that," he said. "He's clear on the direction he wants to take, and I think it's the right direction. He's making it more professional because that's the way the game has gone. If you don’t do that, you'll fall behind."
Johnson, Buckley and Tarkyn Lockyer celebrate a win over West Coast in 2002. Picture: AFL Media
But that doesn't mean Johnson likes the path AFL football has taken. In fact, the 32-year-old says it's not as much fun as it once was.
But that doesn't mean Johnson likes the path AFL football has taken. In fact, the 32-year-old says it's not as much fun as it once was.
He laments the crackdown on post-match drinking with teammates, which he regarded as "a great part of footy".
"You should be able to celebrate wins with the boys. It's a good release, and I reckon you get more out of that than any other team-bonding activities," he said.
Johnson noticed an anti-alcohol shift midway through his career, around 2005-06, when there was increasing focus on recovery.
He understands the logic, saying that "it's harder to go out after games now because the game is so much harder to recover from".
However, he reveals: "I didn’t change one bit and that's probably why I got injured so much in my last two years." (Johnson played just 11 games in 2012-13.)
Johnson fears that only "footy heads" and ultra-professionals will survive in the game.
"It's tough for guys who want to live their life a bit and not just be footy, footy, footy," he said. "If you like a good time, you just have to forget about that part of life, especially in season.
"If me and Taz were coming into the system now, we'd probably struggle to have decent careers.
"The thing is that the mates you grew up with are still your mates, and if they're partying you want to as well. It's a lot to expect of young guys to go against what comes naturally."
Johnson is satisfied with what he achieved in an AFL career in which he was twice runner-up in the Pies' best and fairest and led the club's Brownlow Medal vote tally in both seasons (2004 and 2006).
He credits former Pies assistant coach Gavin Brown, now with North Melbourne, with helping him through a testing early period where he could have "just dropped off like a lot of players".
A dashing defender and midfielder, Johnson was given a license to take the game on. "That was a long time ago when I was faster," he quips.
Johnson's left-foot kicking was the subject of much criticism early on, but he became one of his club's more reliable, penetrating kicks.
"I was just a kid finding his way – my kicking came with confidence," he said. "But when you get tainted with something, you never shake it."
Collingwood will remain a strong part of Johnson's life.
"I'll always drop in for lunch during the week, and I'll always speak to Bucks and give him some hints if I think something needs to be done – we've got a relationship where I can pop in whenever I like," he said.
Johnson isn't sure what his future holds. He has a plaster recycling business with his father, and is doing some labouring work with a mate's father.
Next year Johnson plans to experience his first European summer.
He will also play footy with some mates at Doncaster in Melbourne's Eastern Football League, and hopes to persuade both Tarrant and Didak to join him. This year Johnson played four games with Tarrant at Violet Town in the Kyabram district league.
As he finishes a cappuccino, Johnson says he might consider buying a little coffee shop one day.
One thing is certain: he is already looking forward to premiership reunions, when recovery will be an afterthought.
Johnson in celebratory mode after the 2012 Anzac Day clash against Essendon. Picture: AFL Media
SIX POINTERS
What do you like most about the game?
"Playing in a team environment and working together towards a single goal. Also the great people you meet along the journey."
What don't you like?
"I don't like how professional the game has become. I also don't like how the AFL keep changing the rules. I don’t like the sub rule –none of the players do, and neither do the coaches. It just makes it harder on players' bodies and it'll shorten careers."
What would you change about the game?
"I'd like AFL players to be paid like in American sport, where they get around 50 per cent (of total revenue). Our game brings in enough money to afford that."
Favourite player and why?
"I've got two. The first is 'Swanny' (Dane Swan), for the way he's kept his game at such a high level or so many years while being a little piglet. (Johnson laughs for several seconds.) He'll love that description … The other one is Heath Scotland, one of my old teammates, who probably didn’t start out all that well but what he's done since he moved to Carlton and how hard he works has been a real credit to him. He's going into his 16th season and he's just a warhorse."
How many operations have you had?
"I've had three shoulder reconstructions – two on the left, one on the right. They're always going to be pretty ordinary. I also had an operation on my hand after a pub fight."
How will Collingwood go next year?
"I think there will be a fair bit of improvement from last season. The boys have played the game plan for a couple of years now so they'll be more used to it. Another big pre-season will hold us in really good stead."
Twitter: @AFL_BenCollins
